I've barely tapped into this long rich read because I'm short on time, but I had to see your remarks about Chappelle. First, your identifying his target in mocking trans and handicapped people rings so true -- those who posture glibly and with great delight on social media to proclaim their moral superiority. I had been trusting Dave completely as a grounded and sane human being even without the clarity you just provided.
After one viewing of Dreamer I texted my sister: "I am reminded once again how totally brilliant and fearless he is. The last twenty minutes I was smiling and my mouth was open in astonishment." I want to watch this special again (no time right now), especially to see if I understood this line in context: "There is no more powerful dreamer than a trans man." I took it as a sign of genuine respect. I read an oblique reference to this line by a reviewer who took it as one last dig against the trans among us.
I look forward to a relaxed reading of the rest of this rich, ridiculous, roaming, and reflective Rubesletter that you always deliver.
Thanks. It's a tricky one for sure. Guess I just crave people condemning these two to consider, at least for a moment, that maybe it's their sanctimony that is at least PART of the reason for these jokes as opposed to just pure cruelty targeting marginalized folks.
Interesting. I saw the Gervais show last night and while I absolutely love him and have tracked his discontent for years (including great Sam Harris podcasts), I found it a bit tiring, stale, even cringy.
I’ll always have love in my ❤️ for Gervais not just because he was so excellent hosting the GG (the only reason I even watched it) but especially after his heart shattering work with After Life. He’s an icon. He’s tops. Just not last night. :(
This isn’t one of Contrapoints’ best videos but when on point she is fucking hilarious - esp. about the various levels of BS within left wing communities.
Apropos of nothing:
‘The most well-known and controversial piece of the special is "Niggas vs. Black People". The controversy around the twelve-minute routine led to Rock never performing it again. In a 2005 60 Minutes interview, Rock explained, "By the way, I've never done that joke again, ever, and I probably never will. 'Cos some people that were racist thought they had license to say nigger, so, I'm done with that routine."’
Always thought that Rock explanation was weird 'cuz of course he stopped doing the joke after it came out on a special and everybody knew it. Comics always drop bits after taping and work on new. Why would he keep doing it, y'know?
I don’t know what is in Chris Rock’s heart. What I think is interesting is where and when and how and who you tell a joke to matters (as much as the what and the why).
Anyway I’m much more interested in your views on the Contrapoints video.
I haven’t seen the latest Gervais and Chapelle specials. Gervais has never been particularly discerning in his targets. His onstage persona often veers into being a juvenile playground bully reinforcing his audience’s prejudices.
BTW Have you seen the James Acaster Cold Lasagna special?
Great piece. I personally think Chapelle/Gervais are targeting trans people and they're using their "talent" to shift the target over to the perfect victim of outrage culture. You can just tell when a joke is rooted in prejudice - Gervais more so than Chapelle as DC is a much more accomplished comedian than RG. That Sam Morill nails it with "why the sudden interest in women's swimming" ?? The whole thing with DC having a friend what committed suicide is another example of a perfect victim. Her suicide had nothing to do with him and it was a pretty low blow for him to use her death as a loophole so that we can't call him transphobic.
Of course outrage culture is a great target for a joke, but I can tell when that wasn't the nugget of truth that inspired the joke. I see you! I wish these geezers would just admit that they're kind of grossed out by trans people. It would be so refreshing!
Appreciate the feedback and I get your p.o.v. There's plenty I wish he'd do different. But just to play devil's advocate for a sec: Do you also think he is targeting disabled people with those jokes? Is he "prejudiced" against them? Is he grossed out by Chinese people and that's why he mocks them in this special?
I believe this is an accurate assessment. While it may have been lazy in delivery it was clearly satire. I wish we could all more easily have nuanced conversations. I have been waiting to have more conversations in public about these specials, but so many people (who haven’t even seen the Chappelle specials-they only read about it) believe he is violent and hateful. It wasn’t that long ago when we could all have public discourse without screaming violence, wanting to burn each other, or hurt each other. While the way these two are talking about it now has become tiresome, it still holds up. The last two days I have been preoccupied with people speaking out about the monologue at the Golden Globes. They are saying how it hurt women--if I see one more think piece on that I may scream. Was it a great joke? No, but was it misogynist or abusive to women? Not at all. I heard it, I read it and I just want to know, “Where is the lie?” I want us to be able to talk, to dislike things, to disagree, and not hate each other for it. Where is that going to get any of us? I don’t feel like Gervais or Chapelle are hateful. That being said, I would like to see them change their acts.
Good point, and no I don't think he's grossed out by those groups but the lack of respect is very clear in that he's happy to use them as pawns. Whereas in say a Shane Gills joke about his uncle with Downs it's clear the love and respect is there. Speaking of Gills he lost his SNL contract because of dodgy Chinese jokes so nobody is perfect... And maybe this is all just purely my taste and what triggers me but here we are!
I've barely tapped into this long rich read because I'm short on time, but I had to see your remarks about Chappelle. First, your identifying his target in mocking trans and handicapped people rings so true -- those who posture glibly and with great delight on social media to proclaim their moral superiority. I had been trusting Dave completely as a grounded and sane human being even without the clarity you just provided.
After one viewing of Dreamer I texted my sister: "I am reminded once again how totally brilliant and fearless he is. The last twenty minutes I was smiling and my mouth was open in astonishment." I want to watch this special again (no time right now), especially to see if I understood this line in context: "There is no more powerful dreamer than a trans man." I took it as a sign of genuine respect. I read an oblique reference to this line by a reviewer who took it as one last dig against the trans among us.
I look forward to a relaxed reading of the rest of this rich, ridiculous, roaming, and reflective Rubesletter that you always deliver.
Thanks. It's a tricky one for sure. Guess I just crave people condemning these two to consider, at least for a moment, that maybe it's their sanctimony that is at least PART of the reason for these jokes as opposed to just pure cruelty targeting marginalized folks.
Interesting. I saw the Gervais show last night and while I absolutely love him and have tracked his discontent for years (including great Sam Harris podcasts), I found it a bit tiring, stale, even cringy.
I’ll always have love in my ❤️ for Gervais not just because he was so excellent hosting the GG (the only reason I even watched it) but especially after his heart shattering work with After Life. He’s an icon. He’s tops. Just not last night. :(
An exploration about how to tell jokes about being trans is here: https://youtu.be/qtj7LDYaufM
This isn’t one of Contrapoints’ best videos but when on point she is fucking hilarious - esp. about the various levels of BS within left wing communities.
Apropos of nothing:
‘The most well-known and controversial piece of the special is "Niggas vs. Black People". The controversy around the twelve-minute routine led to Rock never performing it again. In a 2005 60 Minutes interview, Rock explained, "By the way, I've never done that joke again, ever, and I probably never will. 'Cos some people that were racist thought they had license to say nigger, so, I'm done with that routine."’
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Rock:_Bring_the_Pain
Always thought that Rock explanation was weird 'cuz of course he stopped doing the joke after it came out on a special and everybody knew it. Comics always drop bits after taping and work on new. Why would he keep doing it, y'know?
I don’t know what is in Chris Rock’s heart. What I think is interesting is where and when and how and who you tell a joke to matters (as much as the what and the why).
Anyway I’m much more interested in your views on the Contrapoints video.
I haven’t seen the latest Gervais and Chapelle specials. Gervais has never been particularly discerning in his targets. His onstage persona often veers into being a juvenile playground bully reinforcing his audience’s prejudices.
BTW Have you seen the James Acaster Cold Lasagna special?
Some of your best stuff, dude. Insightful and hilarious
Great piece. I personally think Chapelle/Gervais are targeting trans people and they're using their "talent" to shift the target over to the perfect victim of outrage culture. You can just tell when a joke is rooted in prejudice - Gervais more so than Chapelle as DC is a much more accomplished comedian than RG. That Sam Morill nails it with "why the sudden interest in women's swimming" ?? The whole thing with DC having a friend what committed suicide is another example of a perfect victim. Her suicide had nothing to do with him and it was a pretty low blow for him to use her death as a loophole so that we can't call him transphobic.
https://michaelhobbes.substack.com/p/dave-chappelles-some-of-my-best-friends
Of course outrage culture is a great target for a joke, but I can tell when that wasn't the nugget of truth that inspired the joke. I see you! I wish these geezers would just admit that they're kind of grossed out by trans people. It would be so refreshing!
Appreciate the feedback and I get your p.o.v. There's plenty I wish he'd do different. But just to play devil's advocate for a sec: Do you also think he is targeting disabled people with those jokes? Is he "prejudiced" against them? Is he grossed out by Chinese people and that's why he mocks them in this special?
I believe this is an accurate assessment. While it may have been lazy in delivery it was clearly satire. I wish we could all more easily have nuanced conversations. I have been waiting to have more conversations in public about these specials, but so many people (who haven’t even seen the Chappelle specials-they only read about it) believe he is violent and hateful. It wasn’t that long ago when we could all have public discourse without screaming violence, wanting to burn each other, or hurt each other. While the way these two are talking about it now has become tiresome, it still holds up. The last two days I have been preoccupied with people speaking out about the monologue at the Golden Globes. They are saying how it hurt women--if I see one more think piece on that I may scream. Was it a great joke? No, but was it misogynist or abusive to women? Not at all. I heard it, I read it and I just want to know, “Where is the lie?” I want us to be able to talk, to dislike things, to disagree, and not hate each other for it. Where is that going to get any of us? I don’t feel like Gervais or Chapelle are hateful. That being said, I would like to see them change their acts.
Good point, and no I don't think he's grossed out by those groups but the lack of respect is very clear in that he's happy to use them as pawns. Whereas in say a Shane Gills joke about his uncle with Downs it's clear the love and respect is there. Speaking of Gills he lost his SNL contract because of dodgy Chinese jokes so nobody is perfect... And maybe this is all just purely my taste and what triggers me but here we are!